Dirk Verburg

Our society is more complex than ever. For the first time since WWII two nations find themselves at war on the European continent. At the same time our economy is slowing down, inflation is on the rise, whilst technological developments in the AI space are more unpredictable than ever, and we are still trying to find out if these will be our friend or foe… 

In times like these ethics, and a sense of purpose are more important than ever. Therefore I was glad to have the opportunity to have a conversation on these topics with John Hollwitz.

John Hollwitz is a University Professor of psychology and rhetoric. Before coming to Fordham, he was the A.F. Jacobson Professor of Communications at Creighton University and dean of arts and sciences at Loyola College in Maryland. He also has been the vice president of academic affairs at Fordham.

Our interview was focused on the why and how of corporate ethics. During our conversation, we discussed, amongst others, the following topics:

• John’s research into structured ethical integrity interview techniques
• The relationship between ethics and capitalism
• Engraining ethics in the mindset of business leaders
• The relationship between ethics and a sense of purpose
• The consequences of a lack of purpose for organizations and their employees
• How organizations can create a sense of purpose for their employees
• John’s love for blues music, and a book he is preparing about this topic
• The soul of organizations

I really enjoyed our conversation, and if you are interested, you can listen to a podcast of our conversation on

► Apple Podcasts

► Spotify

► YouTube

► No time to watch or listen to podcast now? Here is a short summary of our conversation ⤵

Dirk Verburg: What inspired your 1997 article on ethical integrity interviews, considering its foresight regarding corporate scandals?
John Hollwitz: The article was inspired by the 1988-89 US law banning polygraphs for pre-employment screening. Our research aimed to find if structured interviews, which effectively assessed theft or safety, could also gauge ethical integrity. We unknowingly foresaw corporate scandals, and today I’d focus on the potential prevalence of psychopathy in management, a difficult area to study but crucial for understanding such issues.

Dirk Verburg: How do you view ethics in capitalism? Should public companies only optimize shareholder value and strictly follow the law?
John Hollwitz: Friedman’s shareholder maximization principle is empirically false. My Jesuit background reinforces this. Customers and employees increasingly favor companies engaged in Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR). Friedman’s own loophole—that donations with future utility are justifiable—highlights this. Because publicly traded companies must disclose investments, CSR generates reputational benefits, leading to more engaged employees and loyal customers. Companies cannot afford to ignore ethics; CSR directly contributes to long-term value, beyond mere legal compliance.

Dirk Verburg: How can companies ensure their code of conduct and ethical values truly come to life within the organization?
John Hollwitz: To embed values, companies must reinforce and reward desired behaviors. Beyond just salary, simple methods can be effective. Crucially, assigning clear accountability is key. For instance, General Electric measured top executives’ ethics policy implementation in performance reviews, linking it to pay. This shows that directly vesting responsibility, accountability, and reward in specific individuals significantly enhances compliance and brings values to life.

Dirk Verburg: As an academic, how do you embed ethics in your curriculum to ensure students develop a strong ethical sense for their professional lives?
John Hollwitz: At a Jesuit university, every discipline considers its obligations to the common good. We don’t dictate specific ‘right’ actions but cultivate habits of ethical examination and reflection. Like the Jesuit ‘Examen,’ we promote regular self-reflection on one’s actions and their impact. By couching knowledge within the context of its implications for collective welfare, moral norms emerge, fostering both ethical and intellectual analysis in students.

Dirk Verburg: What is the relationship between ethics and a sense of purpose in the workplace?
John Hollwitz: Yes. A sense of purpose and meaning is a powerful job motivator, connecting employees to something bigger than themselves. Workplaces fostering this ‘transcendent experience’ yield enormous benefits. Research strongly supports enhancing this, also driving the mindfulness movement. Creating environments where employees feel connected—to colleagues, clients, and their labor’s products—boosts meaning, benefiting individuals, workplaces, and shareholders. This purpose-driven approach increasingly motivates younger generations seeking societal contribution beyond material needs.

Dirk Verburg: What are the consequences for companies lacking a strong sense of purpose?
John Hollwitz: Companies lacking purpose face employee withdrawal behaviors, notably turnover and reduced productivity from disengaged staff. People leave jobs that don’t offer meaning. Studies, for example, show women in management often pursue entrepreneurship due to a strong purpose-driven need to contribute, feeling ‘underused’ in their previous roles. This demonstrates a clear link between purpose, employee retention, and overall company performance, impacting the bottom line.

Dirk Verburg: Is there a connection between Jungian individuation and an organization’s sense of purpose?
John Hollwitz: Absolutely. We spend a significant portion of our lives at work, so the individuation process—Jung’s concept of moving towards psychological wholeness—must extend there. While Jung eyed large organizations with suspicion due to their impersonal nature, work that provides a sense of purpose can profoundly contribute to an individual’s development and meaning. Aligning work with this process is crucial for physical, psychological, and spiritual well-being.

Dirk Verburg: What are the individual consequences if companies fail to provide purpose or platforms for individuation?
John Hollwitz: The consequences are severe. Jeffrey Pfeffer’s ‘Dying for a Paycheck’ details how job-related stress, accumulating over decades, impacts life expectancy and mortality. This high stress often stems from workplaces where individuals feel disconnected or misfit, yet stay due to financial necessity. Ethically and financially, companies should not induce fatal illness. Addressing these managerial causes of profound stress, which harm physical and mental health, is crucial.

Dirk Verburg: How can companies effectively foster a sense of purpose among their employees?
John Hollwitz: Companies can foster purpose by connecting employees. Authentic team approaches, with self-management and clear directives, create cohesive units buffering against stress. Publicly acknowledging accomplishments is a powerful, non-material reward. It’s fundamentally about building connection and community, emphasizing a superordinate goal that allows employees to find meaning and ‘hold on to their souls’ in their work. Quality relationships are increasingly vital for engagement.

Dirk Verburg: Tell us about your book ‘Hearing the Blues.’ What’s it about, and what drives you to write it as a big fan of Blues Music?
John Hollwitz: My book, ‘Hearing the Blues,’ explores traditional American Blues. I argue that most modern music since the 1920s-30s stems from the Blues’ unique rhythms and harmonies. Beyond musical influence, the Blues originated from enslaved people’s cries of desperation, lament, and joy—a powerful expression born from immense suffering and injustice. It’s an oral history where I interview musicians, fans, and historians globally. I aim to document how the Blues captured their attention and its meaning in their lives and the broader arts, highlighting its sociological impact from slavery to modern times.

Dirk Verburg: If people are interested in sharing their experiences with the Blues, can they contact you?
John Hollwitz: Absolutely. They can contact me at my university email: hollwitz@fordham.edu. I welcome anyone interested in discussing, writing about, or sharing their personal experiences with the Blues. I’m keen to speak or exchange written messages, as my research focuses on what individuals understand and appreciate about this music in their own lives and its broader impact on the arts.

Dirk Verburg: Is there anything else important to mention regarding business ethics and purpose?
John Hollwitz: Business science is encountering issues it can’t easily accommodate, like Jung’s concept of the soul. While workplaces haven’t fully addressed this, some organizations are exploring it. The next wave of business thinking, on how we generate shareholder value and benefit people, will heavily depend on how we grapple with transcendence and the human soul in the workplace. This deeper inquiry is crucial for future business models.